The Rediff Interview/Murli Manohar Joshi

'The structure at Ayodhya would not have been demolished had the Supreme Court acted wisely and in time'

Why is it that you haven't included Mahajan in your list of people whose lifestyle should be emulated?

No, I'm only talking of the older leaders. And as for the face of the party, it is represented by Vajpayee and Advani.

What about Mahajan?

They will become faces in the times to come. As of today, the BJP's role models are Vajpayee and Advani.

You are willing to quote people like Govindacharya who is not a senior leader, why not Mahajan?

Govindacharya comes from a particular background of the RSS. He has been a pracharak.

So, you would not include Mahajan in your list of people whose lifestyle should be emulated?

In the future, he may become a role model if he acquires that stature.

So, you admit that there is a conflict between the RSS tradition of austerity and the new wheeler-dealer culture that is taking over Indian politics and has also influenced the BJP.

The RSS's austere way of life and a routine political lifestyle have always been different. So that contradiction persists. New people may have come in, but that doesn't change the BJP's thinking.

So, you would treat these people as aberrations?

Not aberrations, but these people will come up and learn from their colleagues. But I disagree that there are any wheeler-dealers in the BJP who are becoming role models.

So, they are there, but not as role models?

It's a big party and there are millions of members.

Even the BJP Parliamentary Party?

(Laughs) I haven't come across any wheeler-dealer in it.

Coming to the question of issues -- what does the BJP stand for now?

The basic tenets of cultural economic nationalism represented by swadeshi and Hindutva persist.

Does this have the same appeal?

Yes. In fact, the latest resolution in Jaipur has emphasised this.

Look at the damage the multinationals have done today. As president of the party, I had warned about the pitfalls of these economic policies in 1991. The same year in July, Venkataraman, (R Venkataraman, the then President of India) had given voice to the same views while addressing Parliament. People are realising this only now.

In retrospect, do you think that the demolition of the Babri Masjid has harmed the BJP?

I don't accept that it was the Babri Masjid. It was a disputed structure.

People by and large wanted a Ram temple and wanted this demolition. Any way, it would not have happened if the Supreme Court had acted wisely and in time.

You don't think the moment the structure came down, the BJP lost the issue?

No. The BJP's issue was not to keep that structure in perpetuation. We wanted it to be handed over voluntarily by those who claimed it was a mosque. Or a law should have been passed.

No one expected it to be demolished that day. It was a force of history that swept through.

The party is advocating an alliance with Mayawati. It has an alliance with Bal Thackeray. You are getting a reputation that you are willing to align with anyone who abuses Mahatma Gandhi.

It's not that but the compulsion of certain situations. In a democracy, after elections the result is such that you have to make combinations.

But you're not uneasy?

It's a question of providing administration and government, not uneasiness.

You are a nationalistic Indian. Doesn't it embarrass you when Mahajan and Thackeray go on the same platform and abuse Mahatma Gandhi. One is your ally, the other your party member.

I don't approve of what Thackeray says about Gandhi. And the BJP does not share those views.

The RSS has always held Gandhi as Pratashmarniya, that is one whose name should be taken every morning. So his position is secure with the BJP.

Personally, do you consider Gandhi the Father of the Nation?

India is an ancient nation. It is only in post-independent India that people call him Father of the Nation and I have no objections.

In other words, you do not ascribe to Mahajan's view.

Yes. What's the harm? It's a democratic party and we may have differences of opinion.

Coming to the present government. When do you expect elections?

Anytime between mid-1997 and early 1998.

How long do you give Deve Gowda?

That's a question you should ask Sitaram Kesri. My calculation is that he will disturb Deve Gowda when he feels that it is profitable for him to go in for elections. In fact, Indrajit Gupta says that this government can pass away any day.

What do you make of the economic performance of the government?

The government is pursuing the same policies as the Congress. In certain cases, even more vigorously and without having any clear-cut line.

Look at the situation today. Despite regular monsoons, we are facing terrible food shortages. People are dying in Orissa. Wheat prices have shot up.

How would you rate the prime minister's performance?

He is a non-performing prime minister.

And the finance minister?

Well, he is Manmohan Singh minus the turban.